Concert Attendance

Like politics, the best hope you have for making an impact is at the local level. Support your local arts and musicians....you can see a lot of great music supporting those who need it the most and not breaking the bank to do so 

Been to at least a dozen high sierras and agree it is on the expensive side as far as festivals go (it's also 4 full days), but the acts and production never skip a single beat. It's a *perfect* festival and worth the money if you have a decent camping situation. The things that deter me these days are the frequency of wildfires in the area (you're choking on smoke the whole time at one out of every three events) and the heat. Again, probably a 30% chance it's gonna be at or over 100 degrees out. And in special years you get both.

Also mostly what fishcane said

Skull and roses had a crappy bloated business model and was living on borrowed time (separately from their theft issue) for several years imo 

If it were only the ticket cost, all concerts would most likely sell out quickly.  Factor in gasoline, parking or airfare, potential road rage assholes to deal with, hotels, food, prick cops and shit quality drugs, staying home and streaming has tremendous appeal. And yes, many younger people can't afford all of that. What fishcane said.

My son and his friends have no trouble finding shows to attend 

Is it a cost factor, or is the market saturated at this point, or maybe some of both? I don't have any data to back it up, but it seems like the number of festivals has really ballooned over the past 20 years or so.

That's too bad about HSMF.  Never went, but have friends who go every year.   Looked into this year, and thought the line up was a bit skimpy.  

Festivals seem like a big gamble with so much expense and moving parts the organizers have to deal with.   But the big ones like Bonnaroo, Coachella, and Knebworth seem to be still banking coin and drawing in the crowds.  Same with big headlining acts playing shows.  Taylor Swift just made a fortune.  Maybe there is just an oversaturation of poorly managed jamband themed festivals.

We got passes for Hulaween this year.   They still haven't announced the lineup, but had friends go last year and they can't stop raving about it.   Hoping they don't pull a Skull & Roses but being that its SCI's fall campout, I am sure they will manage to pull it off again.   

And we just got tickets for Outlaw Fest at the Gorge.   Willie, Dylan, Johnny Cougar, and Billy Strings all for $80 a pop including fees. 

And different people spend money on all sorts of stuff.   But this is me:

i wont be sad at all if demand for festivals drops and we start seeing significantly less of them. outside of something like furthur fest or many of phish's festivals, where youre pretty much just seeing that bands standard show 3 nights in a row and are camping out, ive never been to a festival that ive enjoyed anywhere near as much as just going to a normal show. its a ton of effort, a full day or multi day thing, im paying out the ass for bands i dont care about just to see 1 or 2 sets i do care about, the crowds are more annoying, the music quality tends to be diminished compared to a normal show, and much of the time when i see a band i like playing a festival near me, its as part of a normal tour consisting of mostly normal shows at normal venues, which i now do not get to see without serious travel, because the bands stop within driving distance of where i live is now taken up by them playing some festival, which means i spend more money to see that band play less music in an environment i dont actually want to be in.

if  the era of festivals is winding down, good riddance imo

Young people sure, but older folks too, are getting priced out. And the physical part of walking endlessly around festival grounds or standing for hours to be anywhere near the stage gets old for oldies. 

I went to Grand Targhee festivals for years. Decades. Started in 2001, I think. 600 mile round trip for a 2.5 day fest. Absolutely LOVED it. Like a pilgrimage every year with great music, friends, and vibes. Tons of our Salt Lake crowd were there. 

The round trip through rural Idaho was amazing and a stop at Lava Hot Springs on the way home was always a treat. Tix with camping was around $200 - 230.

Then someone new bought the resort a couple of years ago and the festival has turned into a expensive piece of crap. New buildings in the former forested camping areas. Ridiculous prices for camping in an open field. Last year they tried designated spots (chalk lines?) which was a joke. Rent a room at the resort, even worse. 

If I want to sleep in my truck in the parking lot, it's $630 for a 2.5 day festival. including $30 to process my $600.00 order. Add 35-40 gallons of gas ($160) plus beer and  food..... and hope it doesn't rain. 

Another bummer about Targhee is they moved the soundboard up about 30 feet, so now the folks standing are right there. I used to videotape next to the soundboard and could film over their heads. And we could SIT in front of the board (where my buddy taped) and be able to see and enjoy the show. Now, move on up the ski hill farther away.  FTS. 

Outlaw fest/tour is listed on the 25$ Live Nation deal. That's a helluva price for the lineup this year

Sweetwater 420 Fest in Atlanta kind of shit the bed this year as well. They came out of the gate prior to announcing the bands with some huge $300-$400 tickets. Bands were announced and it was ok, but not like it had been at its previous home. (New location this year also). The new place was considerably smaller, I guess thats why the price went through the roof?

Anyway, fast forward to a few weeks before the shows and they come out with a press release that tickets were now 20% off.  Fast forward to the a week or 2 before the show, another announcement, they dumped most of the bands and now the festival is $10 a day per person. They did refund people. We got the $10 tix and had a wonderful time. They need to keep this model for next year.  Only have 6-8 bands over 2 days. One stage. 

And then raise the price of a 12oz beer to $9. (and since its cashless, add sales tax). They have to get you somehow I guess. 

>>>>And then raise the price of a 12oz beer to $9

$9 isn't bad considering but the price of beer at shows is why the good lord created plastic flasks.  Cheapest beers I had at a show was at Pearl Jam in Poland.  They were like $3 a cup.

Portand Ken:

<<<$9 isn't bad considering but the price of beer at shows is why the good lord created plastic flasks.  Cheapest beers I had at a show was at Pearl Jam in Poland.  They were like $3 a cup.>>

On the flip side of this beer cost equation, it was Jeff Lynne's ELO tour August 02, 2018 - Oakland Arena where beer was $20.

This was over 5 years ago.  $3 sounds like a dream!

"Like politics, the best hope you have for making an impact is at the local level."

Fishcane is wise.

Hey Ken - since this is an attendance thread, there is a cool band coming your way if you are around Portland on June 1. These guys are great. 

The Greyhounds  

JUN 1 SAT

Polaris Hall @ 7:00pm

https://www.greyhoundsmusic.com/

Thanks for the heads up.  Polaris Hall is walking distance from my house.

I've booked my new band 6 gigs in 5 counties in Oregon so far this year, the pay is the lowest it's been in the 45 years i've been doing this.  DJ's took over Frat / Wedding / most Corporate parties decades ago.  Drunk driving laws ended the party generations of the 70's and before.  The pandemic killed a lot of folks interest in spending / sacrificing to make a show.  ASCAP is cracking down on small clubs, and as a result has killed all my favorite local places to play, and will likely destroy the rest soon.  Streaming services don't pay worth a shit, and look at album sales, they've plummeted.  Very few listen to the radio like in the past.  Post 9/11 insurance rates for large gatherings have gone thru the roof...   I gave up on music a while ago, now i'm taking another stab at it, have writted a bunch of new songs for the new band, we'll see what happens.  I have to admit the outpouring of support from old friends on FB has been staggering, puts a tear in my eye, maybe there's hope afterall...  we'll see...

To be continued...

Shameless plug for you Oregonians out there, The Skadeadles summer tour;  a whole bunch of 2 hour gigs, so far playing 40% originals at our shows (and several GD covers);

2 electric guitars and washtub bass, we all sing, lots of harmonies! 

id be interested in hearing the details on the situation you mentioned with the ascap killing your favorite small venues noodler, that sounds both sad and interesting and im not really framiliar with this kind of thing at all. from a quick glance at wiki, it seems like the ascap is an organization that deals with royalties, which im assuming in this case relates to playing cover songs, but ive never heard of any issues or problems relating to this kind of thing

I need to stay out of specifics as a matter of respect to the club owners, but for the sake of argument...   it might cost a tavern thousands, to only have 2 shows a month, if it's cover tunes...  it could cost a tavern $5k a year, if they have music 3 or 4 nights a week

I'm too am ignorant of what exactly ascap does.  Sounds like they are a powerful entity and I can appreciate that posting online specific comments might get one into trouble.  From the comment above it sounds like a small venue such as a tavern would be better off having live music 3 or 4 nights a week with a yearly ascap fork over of around 5K. If they only book a couple gigs a month they are still on the hook for around 2k.  That seems like an incentive to book gigs and bring the local music lovers out of their domiciles. Am I seeing this wrong? 

Most taverns in the small towns around me don't have volume alcohol sales anymore...   they make their money off of food.  It use to be the opposite.  A big city can move a large enough volume to make it work in theory, but what i'm seeing, is MANY old restaurants in places like Portland go out of biz because food and labor cost are just too high to make a profit.  Folks don't go out like they use to, and entities like Door Dash take too much to be a profitable option.  

Lets say your tavern seats 50 people.  You pay a band $200, sound engineer $50.  You sell a hundred beers at $6.  Pricing in restaurants is typically a triple of costs, well, before the pandemic / oil price gouging changed the profit structure.  So you sell a hundred beers, make $600,  that leaves $200 for beer cost, $200 for rent / utilities, and $200 for labor. You're losing money on the band, let alone sound, PA costs, etc.  The local clubs in our town usually lose money on live music, it's something they do because of their ethos, in essence, it's important for them to support local talent / culture.  Should you have a good night, you can do the math yourself on what it would take to break even.  ASCAP just adds another exorbitant fee, without supplying any useful service, that sticks it to the small venues...   I've always wondered how much of that money actually goes to the artists.  But legends make up a tiny portion of live music, every town has local bands that deserve support, and ASCAP just ends up being robber barons killing the smallest venues (seat less than 50).  A lot of these small places only have music one night a week because they lose money on it, add more nights and they're out of biz.  I'd say 95% of the places I've played over the last 45 years have gone out of biz, and of the remaining 5%, half don't have music anymore!  The few that do are owned by rich people that can afford to take a loss...   one way out is for shows to be private parties (how wineries pull it off, etc).

In conclusion, you can see how important it is to support the smallest venues, and not just by attending, but by having a meal, a beverage or 2...   going with friends and family, and promoting shows when your local faves play, or even bands you can't stand, LOL...   it's up to us to try and keep these wounded musical venues afloat!  And one of the greatest gifts Deadheads have given to the world, is the love of supporting a large and diverse musical community at all levels.  So step up to the place Phil Phans, we all can, and do, make a difference!!!  Oh, remember to tip the staff and the bands, they do need it!!! 

RIP Roy Carter - booking manager / promoter of High Sierra /DelFest

"Roy was a great friend to our music scene. A quiet guy who let others make the noise, he will be remembered with great love and respect for all he made happen for so many." - Vince, Leftover Salmon

"Roy Carter, one of the original founders of the High Sierra Music Festival and DelFest, passed away of congestive heart failure on April 29. He was 68.

Carter got his start in the business doing publicity for clubs and venues, and creating recycling programs for festivals and music events. In 1991 he and three other partners started High Sierra Music Festival in Leland Meadows, California. The festival pioneered featuring rock, acoustic, bluegrass, jazz and folk all together in one weekend.

High Sierra Music Festival nurtured the burgeoning jam scene, helping boost the careers of acts such as the String Cheese Incident, Leftover Salmon, Yonder Mountain String Band, the Slip, Sound Tribe Sector 9, Umphrey’s McGee and many others. Carter had a keen eye for talent, and was known for booking bands very early in their careers such as Billy Strings, the Revivalists, Avett Brothers and the Lumineers."

If you wanna give a dance you gotta pay the band, says the old saying.

The licensing fees from ASCAP, BMI, SESAC top out around $600 a month.  These fees pay songwriters and publishers. Includes recorded music. 600/30 = $20 per day.  That's one deluxe burger with sweet potato fries, craft beer extra.

Why do people think music should be free?  

About the only place left for music income is publishing and I would fight like hell to keep mine too.

The worst for me and partially why I stopped gigging is people need to talk more than listen.

That said, the times they are a changin'.

Around here a lot of local bands are payed nothing by the small taverns or venues owners where they play.  They might just get free beer/food.  The band money comes from what they charge folks at the door to see them.  Usually it's not much for small local bands, $10 to $20 range but if they get 100 people it's a good night. 

my local guys get dinner....meatloaf. well, that place closed and is now going itallian...now they will get pizza.

Hookahville hasn't canceled. Not sure why you or the other person I saw on Reddit say something similar, but hookahville is still going 

Glad to hear Hookahville is still going onward.  Does ekoostik hookah still play every year?  Heard about John Mullins passing a few years back and I'm not up with the scene at all anymore.  Had three great years seeing that band from '92 thru '95, Great f'ing band.  If I still lived in Ohio I'd be at Hookahville. 

I'm not in the ekoostik hookah scene, but since I'm originally from Ohio and still visit Buckeye lake every year for the dark Star jubilee, I am kept abreast of things happening in the outer provinces. 
 

yes, they still play a few shows throughout the year in addition to their hookahville, this year their 30th. Yes, in the mid to late 90s, they had many fans throughout Ohio. I last saw them in 2000 at hookahville when Ratdog played. Jon Mullins died. Bassist Cliff Starbuck left in 2009. Ed McGee is gone, but Dave Katz and Steve Sweeney still in band. 

<After seeing my friend be out of commission for six months after his second time getting Covid I have to say it is in the back of my mind when I make decisions about going out>

I'm still COVID cautious but we went to the Boulder Theater last night to see Sam Bush Band. Great show. $30, no fees. Sat in the balcony with all the other olds. Someone behind us said this is the section where everyone sits down when the music starts. He wasn't wrong.

Good to hear, Stringtwang. I have tix for Friday night in Park City. They wanted $55 but I got 'em for half price. Dinner and beer before. 

This new article and interview with Ekoostik Hookah's Dave Katz may shed some light:

https://www.jambase.com/article/hookahville-ekoostik-hookah-dave-katz-in...

I think this idea came about on Reddit because someone saw Dave's yearly pre-hookahville hype letter to his fans where he noted that Hookahville may not last forever. 

Attendance seems strong in the Northeast. Many more smaller festivals seem to be popping up.newer outdoor venues seem to be expanding how many concerts they do per year.
I looked at Skull & Roses last year, and the pricing was absolutely insane.
Watched some of the simulcasts, and there seemed to be very sparse attendance.
And I know it's obv a GD themed festival, but it had serious Grateful Overkill.
Things seemed to be booked just for the sake of being GD related, such as the awful "Latin Dead" or whatever it was called. Basically just JK doing his usual thing, over hispanic-flavored musical accompaniment. I can't speak for the other fests, but I can't see why Skull & Roses would have kept going.
I mean, unless someone just had buckets of money to throw at it & keep it alive.

The most obvious and dramatic effects are doomed to happen on the west coast because there is functionally zero (free/black market) weed commerce any longer, and those particular dollars were a HUGE part of what drove the growth of these festivals to begin with.

^ Yep.

Maryland has two "new" hippiefests in their third year: BayGrass and Ramble. DelFest is still going strong. There's also Hot August and Charm City Bluegrass. The problem with Maryland fests is that it rains so much of the time. God knows why I still go to these things.

PRESENTING THE 2024 ANNAPOLIS BAYGRASS FESTIVAL LINEUP:

Oteil & Friends • The Infamous Stringdusters • Leftover Salmon • Sam Bush
Kitchen Dwellers • Sierra Hull • Daniel Donato’s Cosmic Country
Cris Jacobs & Friends • Trouble No More • The Lil Smokies • The Dirty Grass Players
Big Richard • Brown Eyed Women • Geraldine
Artists-at-Large: Jennifer Hartswick, Natalie Cressman, and Ron Holloway

ASCAP interactions are weird here.  Special ops lurks as a customer, confirm it's cover music, then a phone call and financial demand. 

Druba - I'll try and check you guys out at the Beehive Food Pod. I've played there several times, including last June 21st (Make Music Day).

cheers

Thanks Vann!  Spent today working and reworking lyrics on the 2 newest tunes with a band mate, always fun.  Do you know if they provide the PA?